[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (0:00 - 0:12)
It's not even that it's deliberate or malicious. It's not like, fuck these women, we're not going to do this. It's just because the people doing the things for so long and for centuries who've been building all of the things have historically been straight men.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (0:12 - 1:13)
What a crazy world that we live in, that torture is normalized. They put the bottle of vodka in a capsule and then you take some Effexor. And so after that, they were like, OK, we're managing women's hormone related symptoms in perimenopause and menopause with antidepressants or painkillers.
All of that got built into this bias for the next 20 years. And so many women then died from not having access to the care they actually needed because everybody said estrogen kills you when it's the exact opposite. Hi, everybody.
Welcome back to Off the Charts. You know who I am, Bobby, if you don't. Hi, I am talking.
I'm your wordy kiki with Kaz today. My favorite thing in the world to do is talk about feminism and feminism in medicine. And I could think of nobody better than Kaz to me herself to wrap womanity, feminisms.
I mean, if there was a drug, we'd call you feminism, ma'am. So welcome to the podcast.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (1:13 - 1:14)
Yeah, yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (1:15 - 1:44)
I feel like I really just want to spend some time talking to somebody who I normally kiki about this with. And that one of the things I really want to talk to you about, because you speak to so many people, there's so many women, you know, who've gone through so many different things. And one of the things that I want to bring up is is sexism prevalent in medicine?
According to you, your experience and people, you know, and what, you know, it is literally all we talk about as a soldier.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (1:45 - 1:54)
We just came from a brunch with a friend as well. The entire conversation was about women basically in getting bad care.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (1:54 - 1:56)
Why is every conversation at every brunch?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (1:56 - 1:58)
And it just comes up, she didn't even drink.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (1:58 - 2:06)
That includes a woman. I always have to bring up a horror story that happens to her. And that can happen all the time.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (2:06 - 2:11)
Sorry, so all the conversations at brunches, we had to stop talking because it was some of it was so bad. Like it was literally, oh, that's so heartbreaking.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (2:11 - 2:27)
We were gasping. And it's just because it's happening over and over again. So many of the women listening and watching this will totally understand because it's happened to you and you bring it up with your girlfriends and you try to bring it up with medical providers.
And yet you still end up hitting a brick wall.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (2:28 - 4:36)
Yes. And also talking about like sexism and misogyny in medicine. And as we're always saying, it's the same with like racism.
It's not just medicine. It's the building blocks of the entire world. So it's every single thing.
And I was telling Bobby that I'm reading this book at the moment. I would encourage everyone to read, specifically doctors. I think it's a brilliant book.
It's called Invisible Women. Data bias in a male world, something like that. Brilliant.
Great audio book. But I was reading the the preface of the book is whatever one page I wanted to read us on the podcast. This is essentially everything we're talking about.
Because we're just in one thing. Most of recorded human history is one big data gap. Starting with the theory of Manda Hunter, the chroniclers of the past have little space for women's role in the evolution of humanity, whether cultural or biological.
Instead, the lives of men have been taken to represent those of humans overall. When it comes to the lives of the other half of humanity, there is often nothing but silence. And these silences are everywhere.
Our entire culture is riddled with them. Film, news, literature, science, city planning, economics. The stories we tell ourselves about our past, present and future.
They are all marked, disfigured by a female shaped absent presence. This is the gender data gap. The gender data gap isn't just about silence.
These silences, these gaps have consequences. They impact women's lives every day. The impact can be relatively minor.
Shivering in offices set to a male temperature norm, for example, or struggling to reach a top shelf set at a male height norm. Irritating certainly, unjust undoubtedly. But not life threatening.
Not like crashing in a car whose safety measures don't account for women's measurements. Not like having your heart attack goes undiagnosed because your symptoms are deemed atypical. For these women, the consequences of living in a world built around male data can be deadly.
One of the most important things to say about the gender data gap is that it is not generally malicious or even deliberate. Quite the opposite. It is simply the product of a way of thinking that has been around for millennia and therefore a kind of not thinking, a double not thinking even.
Men go without saying and women don't get said at all. Because when we say human, on the whole, we mean man.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (4:38 - 5:26)
My God, OK, I'm a man. You read a part, I've never heard that before, but this is how I try to live my life. So I used to, at my last clinic, keep the temperature of my room because I had control over the temperature of the office.
I used to keep it frigid because I got too hot. And all of the other providers, there were 23 of us, 22 of them were women. The number of times that one of the female providers, if you're watching this, I'm really sorry, actually just registering that now, then I would keep it cold because I got too hot.
And I just got uncomfortable. And then they would be wearing coats or they would be wearing extra layers. And they would all be saying just like, Bobby, it's so cold.
And I'm like, but I start sweating.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (5:26 - 5:27)
Everyone having pneumonia.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (5:27 - 5:32)
I know, actually. Like, oh, my God, come to think of it, I gave out antibiotics like candy that year.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (5:32 - 5:38)
I don't want to go crazy. Um, what do you mean?
Like, whatever, there's stuff to learn everywhere.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (5:38 - 6:00)
Like, whatever's there. But like, even that, these are the kinds of things like there's bias built into everything. Every time a woman asks for somebody to work her up for her fatigue, there's bias built into whoever it is.
It could be a female provider. It could be a male provider. It doesn't matter.
Yeah, because the bias is already built in against her. Because that's just how our society operates as it is.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (6:00 - 6:20)
It's not even that it's deliberate or malicious. After all, it's not like, fuck these women. We're not going to do this.
It's just because the people doing the things for so long and for centuries who've been building all of the things have historically been straight men. So they're thinking a certain way. They're not.
Everything is just a certain way. And then it just becomes normal. And then that's just how it is.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (6:20 - 6:47)
Yeah, because then the people who are in positions of power, who end up being straight white men most of the time and historically have been, who have decided what happens, what gets funded, who gets tested, how they get tested, how it ends up being put on the table as what you even discussed at that meeting. There's millennia of people being ignored. The female shaped figure that ends up not being represented because there's complete silence about it, because nobody ever brought it up in the first place.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (6:47 - 6:47)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (6:47 - 6:55)
I want to talk to you about very specific things, OK? Like, let's talk about concrete examples. Do you have any concrete examples that you think represent this?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (6:56 - 7:09)
It is a fucking billion. I would say, though, I need to preface a lot of this is a lot of these are other our friends story. But one of them I've asked if I can use as an example today, because it's very recent.
They will remain nameless. But love you.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (7:09 - 7:10)
She who has no name.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (7:10 - 7:51)
So this person is pregnant at the moment, six months pregnant, living in a different country. So it's a different health care system. And I'm always thinking like I live in Canada, but I'm from Ireland and there's very different things happening there for very different reasons.
So she's six months pregnant. She has stage four endometriosis. So coming with that into pregnancy is a loss.
Already high risk with different stuff was anemic. And for me, something as basic as iron has taught me so much. About how women get dismissed now, because until I met you and I had iron problems or whatever, I was always just told women have low iron.
That's what doctors would just tell us. Women have low iron.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (7:51 - 7:57)
So I was like, women just have low irony of somebody even saying that saying women have low iron and then just full stopping there.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (7:57 - 7:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (7:58 - 7:58)
Deal.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (7:59 - 8:06)
Yeah. So then my friend was incredibly anemic, which is obviously I don't think you need to be doctor to know it's due to endometriosis.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (8:06 - 8:27)
That's going to cause your bleed too heavily. You're inflamed. You literally can't absorb it.
The lesions of this terrible chronic problem are completely debilitating every tissue in your body. How the hell are you expected to actually operate normally? And the normal for women is already iron deficiency.
Add on this disease on top of that.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (8:27 - 8:39)
Yeah, it's already a deficiency. So she was getting really, really bad anemia, really, really bad anemia. And then it got to a stage where it's like it's dangerous.
You're almost coming to the point where you said you can't you can't get it after 30 weeks pregnant.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (8:39 - 9:05)
You can't possibly increase your iron stores after 30 weeks of pregnancy because the baby is demanding so much per day to grow. And that's the point. And there's nothing you could possibly eat.
You could try to eat 14 steaks that day if you wanted to. And your body is going to say, hmm, let's try honey. But that iron is not going to get past.
And the iron that does, it won't even be enough to make up for the demands of a baby.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (9:05 - 9:31)
Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like you could.
There's women I could pick and you could follow their entire life if they have PCOS, they have endometriosis, if they have, I don't know, various other conditions that women have. You can just follow their life and it is going to be marked by medical dismissals by it feels like when I listen to it, it feels like it's like torture for them. That's what it like.
It literally sounds like fucking torture. And you just get used to it because that's just the entire system.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (9:31 - 9:38)
What a crazy world that we live in, that torture is normalized. It's literally, it's like the Geneva Convention needs to change its rules.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (9:38 - 10:17)
So sorry, this is a real answer, but my friend, she was finally begging for an iron transfusion, was getting one last week and messaged me at the iron transfusion saying, Oh, it seems like one of the nurses is just getting trained to do this right before it happens. And I'm not a fucking doctor. I'm not even in a medical field, but I know a lot about transfusions from you.
Some of it's so basic that I'm like, how do they not know this? And then my friend gets her long awaited iron transfusion because she's, you know, it's very serious. And then they fuck it up and they basically move her while she's getting a transfusion.
She then gets the permanent... You can explain it, but she gets a permanent stain on her arm. And the hardest thing is, though, she doesn't get the transfusion in the end, they can't finish it.
So she's still fucking anemic.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (10:18 - 11:37)
There's so much there. And it's one of the like example stories of how things like this happen. A person with endometriosis ends up not getting proper care prior to conceiving.
Everybody knows that they have endometriosis. They're in the journey to try to have a baby. Somehow they miraculously are able to conceive despite this condition.
Right. Then the girl, you're pregnant. Amazing.
Congratulations. And then they leave her alone. They don't monitor her properly.
They don't look at all the things that could be a factor from having had the endometriosis before that could inform the pregnancy and then wait for her to complain enough. This person said they couldn't get out of bed. He's retired.
He's retired. Couldn't get out of bed. And debilitated as a pregnant person.
And then they're supposed to somehow say, there must be a reason that this has happened to me. Can you help me figure this out? And they're like, OK, great.
I had to advocate for herself to make that happen. Then they go in to get the infusion because somebody heard them right after they screamed or like whatever long enough. Then they get the infusion.
That gets fucked up. And then they still leave her in this position that she was in the first place now weeks later. And now she's left with this crazy stain because they didn't take care of her properly.
That in any world that happens, all medical mistakes happen to all kind of people. But why does it keep happening on repeat to the same women?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (11:37 - 11:37)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (11:38 - 11:39)
Over and over and over again.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (11:39 - 12:15)
It's just it keeps happening. Specifically, I feel like anyone I hear with endometriosis, it's like it's so underfunded. It's so under-researched.
Anything to do with women, like if you're asking a regular GP. Honestly, male or women. So it doesn't matter if the fucking GP is a man or woman, spoons or whatever.
There's just such a lack of, A, it seems like curiosity. Not even like knowledge. I get you only learn it for however much you do in medical school.
But like there's there we live in a world where there's so much knowledge. There's so many books. There's so much research.
What are they doing? I don't want to blame them because I like doctors have a hard job.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (12:16 - 14:07)
My favorite example of this is what's happening right now with perimetaposal menopause. That 25 years ago, there was a study that showed that hormones were bad. And I said this before in other different episodes, but I'll repeat it again here because it's worth repeating.
We do a study that was like, oh, we should show how how good or bad hormones are when we give them to women because we've been giving them to women for decades at this point. It looks like they're pretty good. So then they're like, we're going to, because this is how studies work, we're going to pick the population that gets most diseased so we can measure the diseases that we think happen to women.
So we're going to pick instead of women in their 40s and 50s who go through perimetaposal menopause and instead of women who get symptoms, because when you have symptoms, you then don't know if you're getting treatment or you're not in a study. Because if you're getting hot flashes, you know you are different than the group who's not getting hot flashes. So you can't blind the study properly.
OK, so you remove women who are getting symptoms or you don't ask them about it. So now you have women who are not in their 40s, not in their 50s, who are not getting symptoms. So who do you have left?
You have 60 year olds and 70 year olds representing women in the 40s and 50s. And then the population at the time, this is called the WHI, I know it's wild. The population at the time.
Was in the late 90s and early 2000s, the average woman in America as part of the demographic that was chosen to be part of the study as a cross-section of society was morbidly obese. So most of the women were obese and then half the women were smokers because half the population at the time smoked. So not only did you not include 40 and 50 year old women as the majority women who are being looked at in the study, you needed to show who got heart attacks, who got strokes, who got breast cancer.
So you gave hormones to women in the 60s and 70s who were morbidly obese and smoked. And then you were surprised.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (14:08 - 14:08)
Iconic woman.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (14:09 - 15:11)
Iconic. Iconic. You were surprised that they got strokes.
You were surprised that they got breast cancer. You were surprised that they got the diseases you were deliberately looking for. And found the population they would happen in.
And then what happens? Medicine goes and news goes. So the world goes, whoa, breast cancer and heart attack and stroke are higher when you give hormones to women across the board.
And so nobody was allowed to use hormones anymore. So the hormone use of medications that are normally very helpful at preventing disease, very helpful at preventing stroke, very helpful at preventing heart attack, very helpful at preventing breast cancer. Those are ripped away because they painted this whole group with the same brush.
And so women in the 40s and 50s were now left to suffer. And they normalized torture again with what are you going to do for your health flashes? What are you going to do for your insomnia?
What are you going to do for your depression? What are you going to do for your ID?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (15:11 - 15:11)
They did nothing.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (15:11 - 15:23)
They did. Well, antidepressants became much more normalized because if we can't give you hormones because it's going to cause you to have breast cancer and it's going to cause you to have strokes and heart attacks. What can we give you to make you feel better?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (15:23 - 15:24)
I'd like a bottle of vodka.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (15:26 - 16:24)
They put the bottle of vodka in a capsule and you take some Effexor. And so after that, they were like, OK, we're managing women's. Hormone related symptoms, impaired menopause and menopause with antidepressants or painkillers.
So we started painkilling women, giving them nerve painkillers, because if you're all full of that, then you're all full of anxiety and your nerves are all like, yeah, you might as well just numb her. Just comatose her so that she doesn't, one, complain. And then two, sounds ideal.
How we allowed for this to happen. And then I started school at the time in 2003. And we're learning about all this stuff.
And we were anything to do with estrogen, because estrogen was just revealed to cause strokes and heart attacks and breast cancer in these women. But of course it was because it just explained why that would make sense. You gave it to obese people who smoked in their in their 70s.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (16:25 - 16:26)
So funny.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (16:26 - 16:42)
I know. And then you say anything to do with estrogen. Flaxseeds, soy.
Were you ever in a time growing up where I'm a vegetarian, so it was very prevalent for me where like soy was bad.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (16:43 - 16:46)
Sorry, I'm from Ireland. Should I go in with soy water?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (16:46 - 17:33)
Oh, never mind. She didn't eat any edamame. So when here and in the really the Western world on, I guess, this side of the pond.
Everything to do with estrogen, including soy, was no longer allowed to be something that you considered part of your diet because it was going to cause breast cancer or was going to feminize you. So estrogen became the devil, and it villainized anything that had estrogen associated with it, even if it was literally in Asia showing nobody's getting breast cancer. Actually, it was being prevented.
Nobody's getting strokes. It was actually being prevented. Nobody was getting a heart attack.
It was actually being prevented by the people who ate soy. But here, for some reason, it just seeped into. That makes sense.
Estrogen is evil. And why do people think estrogen was evil?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (17:33 - 17:35)
Because it has an issue with them.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (17:35 - 17:45)
Exactly. Because women are evil. Yeah, that's exactly.
Eve is like burn her because and that in and of itself, how like you're growing up, it's like you run like a girl.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (17:45 - 17:46)
You punch like a girl. Exactly.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (17:47 - 18:01)
All of that got built into this bias for the next 20 years. And so many women then died from not having access to the care they actually needed because everybody said estrogen kills you when it's the exact opposite.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (18:01 - 18:03)
Has it changed a lot now?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (18:03 - 18:07)
No, no.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (18:07 - 18:13)
It's actually like when you're every time you're talking with like women's health or interstitial women, you're like, yeah, actually. So there's no rainbow at the end of the.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (18:14 - 18:24)
No, the rainbow is black. Yeah, it's coming dark. The storm clouds are still brewing.
Yeah, because the people who are calling the shots are the same people.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (18:25 - 18:25)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (18:25 - 18:27)
So how is it supposed to change?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (18:28 - 18:50)
Do you think like is it stupid to say this? But like, do you think like social media has changed? I mean, I feel maybe that maybe doctors are not more even educated now, but I feel like women are like I feel women now of my generation are more educated about their health than generations before.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (18:50 - 19:14)
Yes, 100 percent true. I think that's probably because so many women now are not taking it anymore and actually know. That's actually unfair to women before.
I should. Yeah, no, no, no. So they're not taking anymore and they are able to access slivers of information that show them that's not true.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (19:14 - 19:15)
Yeah, that's not true.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (19:16 - 19:40)
So it's a combination of little slivers are breaking through and they're like, oh, I read this thing about or somebody taught me this thing about that. And I actually better than myself. And that's that's not true, doctor.
Yeah, I should have access to this medication. I should be able to get an iron infusion. I should be able to get that test.
And they're they're now like not taking it anymore. So like they're getting informed and armed.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (19:40 - 20:05)
And there's groups now is like specifically for stuff like endometriosis. There's like kind of a lot of legislation, even Ireland trying to happen with it to get more funding. And I feel like social media, as bad as everyone says social media is.
I do feel like for even during repeat and any of these like activism on social media for women and the community for queer and people and for women, it's really helpful.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (20:06 - 21:50)
Hundred percent. I think that that's this wave now of. Influencership like Halle Berry and Oprah and all of the Nicole Kidman, all of the women were like, girls, we've been on these.
Naomi, what's the student menopause like? Girl, we've been we've been on these things for years. Where have you been?
It's because you've you've had access. Some of you haven't, but you had access, knew about it, but it never trickled through. But it is now because you're finally talking about it, because now it feels safe to talk about it.
It feels like there's this upswell and doctors, female doctors now are becoming these incredible influencers online. The Dr. Jen Gunter's, the Kelly Caspersons, all of these wonderful now podcasters that are constantly on Instagram as well, just sharing, sharing, sharing and saying, nope, not going to take it anymore. That's not true.
And then other people who are now listening to that, who are seeing that they have a platform and then follow them are like, no, I saw that this is not true. And then take that information to their provider and say and say, no, no, we can't do that anymore or come to a provider who actually gets it or who got it. And then say, can you provide that kind of care for me?
Because I'm not able to get it out to her. There's definitely this like. But I said no originally, because even now, like if 90 percent of women who are after the age of menopause are eligible for hormone therapy, as an example, if 90 percent of women are eligible currently after all this upswell, after all of this, like everybody, these are fine.
I think about your hormones and paramore person. Currently, only 14 percent of women are offered. What exactly?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (21:51 - 21:52)
Fourteen.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (21:52 - 21:55)
Yeah, Jesus. Why?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (21:55 - 21:56)
Why?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (21:56 - 21:56)
Why?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (21:56 - 22:03)
Why, though? Why do you think? Oh, the other.
He's a stupid question you're asking.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (22:04 - 22:54)
That's why I'm like. So we ask the why question. Is this about like.
Just. Ignorance in medicine, and we're just not there yet. Is it about.
Like doctors not being taught in school because they only get one hour in like female specific or female advocacy specific in saying that it's not saying is that still the same? They're now adding into curricula menopause specific training. There's this thing called the Menopause Society.
And where it's all like the where all of the information is gathered and then conferences and all of the advocacy, they have a journal, et cetera, for understanding menopause, hormone replacement therapy better. They still only have a few thousand members. There's a few thousand doctors on this block.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (22:55 - 22:56)
I've been to all of them.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (22:56 - 23:28)
I know. Can somebody please listen to me? So, no, that's telling, right, these numbers are puny.
They're they're so small still because we have still yet this tsunami of women advocating online and getting into groups and and making people try to listen. It's still not anywhere near where it's supposed to be. And it's because medicine is part of a misogynistic world.
Medicine is sexist. Of course, it is.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (23:28 - 23:33)
It's like one of the most sexist and racist institutions and whatever.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (23:34 - 24:09)
And how could it not be? How could you not be sexist or racist when you are born out of a society that is sexist and racist? Are you somehow immune?
Did you take some kind of vaccine that made you immune to the literal energies that are part and woven into the fabric of our society? How did you do that? Where did you get that from?
Who gave that shot to you? No one. So you are still at the mercy of these biases.
You're still at the mercy of these prejudices. Like you said, you don't necessarily like it's not malicious.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (24:13 - 25:01)
It's the same with everything. It's just the way the world is. You don't even know things are a certain way.
There's even certain things I've learned from you. You said something like. I never even thought that that was like.
I just thought it was. That is what it is. It is.
It's just. Yeah, I don't know. It's fucking wild.
And I think in medicine, it is one of the biggest ways of the world to control women. So it's the biggest tool of the patriarchy is abortion. So controlling women's body.
And you see it happening as fascism rises. They pull away women's rights. What's the number one way to do that through their body, through medicine?
It's happening in America. It's happening all over the world. It's good and bad in all the different ways.
But it is the number one way in the world of controlling women is reproductive health care.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (25:02 - 25:55)
Yeah, because you don't want an educated woman not having babies, because if she doesn't have babies and gets informed and is allowed to explore her brain in a society that's free, she isn't going to bear your children as much as you'd like for her to. And that is a bad thing. How do you then make sure she does?
You control every decision she could possibly make about herself or pretend like she has the freedom and then put roadblocks. Don't put funding for that study to even understand what happens there. So you get scared about it, so you don't do it.
Don't give pain relief to women getting contraception like IUDs. Don't offer them pain relief when they're getting surgery, like an object shot inside.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (25:55 - 26:07)
I don't know how to talk about this because it's so infuriating. IUDs, like if Jordan Peele is looking for his next fucking movie, he can make one about IUDs. It's right there.
It's terrifying. It'll be really hard.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (26:07 - 26:08)
Get it out.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (26:10 - 26:14)
Get it out. Just women scurrying. Just being like, you'll be fine, Mitch.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (26:16 - 26:23)
The shock of people not offering. So who made this up? First of all, who made up that the cervix doesn't feel pain?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (26:24 - 26:26)
I don't know. Who made that up? Han?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (26:26 - 26:55)
Yeah. But like, how even that became a normalized part of medicine to be like, well, the cervix doesn't feel pain, so you'll be fine. And you shoot this metal object or this plastic object up your vagina into your cervix and then have it be sitting in your uterus.
And you'll be fine, girl. Now they're offering, now people are offering inhaled pain medication on top of benzodiazepines to relax you. On top of a lidocaine block.
I don't remember if it was a nerve block.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (26:55 - 26:56)
And then before, they were like, you'll be fine.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (26:56 - 27:54)
You'll be fine. So informed, trauma informed, and then just the fact that it's even trauma informed, just offer the person medication to make it less painful. But you didn't.
You put a roadblock in front of it so that you would make it so that it is a fear based idea that every girl comes to me and says, no, my girlfriend had so much pain, I'm not going to get an I.D. So I'm just going to go on birth control. But I hate birth control, oral birth control. I hate it.
It ruins my brain. It makes me depressed. Not saying that it does that across the board.
Oral birth control is a wonderful medication used by billions of women. And yet some women think it's their only option because they are scared to use these other things because nobody there was cockblock every step of the way, not studied, not given money for, not properly explained. And then everybody is afraid of doing anything because they're just like they're just going to torture me anyway.
So I don't want to do that. It's crazy.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (27:54 - 27:59)
It's literally some of the worst stories I've ever heard is women getting an I.D. And I'm like, it literally sounds like handmaid's tale.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (28:00 - 28:01)
I mean, where have we there?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (28:01 - 28:02)
No, we're literally there.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (28:02 - 28:25)
We're halfway there. So annoying. I do have to say, though, like as a man, it's so hard for me to hear even somebody like you say is just most of the people that, you know, go through stuff like this.
Yeah, just, you know, that you're like, no, but it's still so hard to hear that it's just so okayed.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (28:25 - 28:25)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (28:26 - 28:30)
I don't understand how. Like, how do we get here?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (28:30 - 28:53)
I don't know. But it's like it's bad. And I think when you see like even America now and stuff like you just read the news and it's like they've, you know, they're overturning abortion of Roe versus Wade.
All of these states are now making it like in some cases you can't have abortion at all. And it's just. How quickly everything can be taken away from you.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (28:53 - 29:04)
Can you talk a little bit about your history, work, life around that, around abortion? Here comes feminism app people. Here she come.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (29:06 - 30:09)
I'm from Ireland, which had one of the strictest abortion laws in the world until I think it was second to Malta, which still has, I think, one of the strictest in the world. And it was in our constitution, which means to get us overturned, it had to be a the government can do like it had to be a vote. And so I think it was seven years ago, 2018, Ireland overturned our abortion laws, which was amazing.
It was an incredible day. Literally will never forget one of the best days of my life. May 2018.
And along with my friend Fiona helped in a very small way because it was this was hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland just after we did yes, a polity for gay rights. So we helped kind of. I don't know what the words like gave Irish people abroad a platform and try and get people together to do protest around the world of Irish people living in Belgium, in London, in Australia, wherever.
I think it really just it was literally just a spark that just gave people because, as you know, so many Irish people live abroad.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (30:09 - 30:09)
Yeah.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (30:09 - 31:09)
And we can't vote if we live away after two years or something. OK, so most of the generation who wanted to live away and then they couldn't vote. So it was just giving them a way to get to activate, which they did.
And it was like it was amazing response. And then I moved home literally so I could fucking vote. I moved home in 2017 and just became part of the other thousands of people protesting and activating to get the laws overturned.
And it was so stressful for everyone involved. It was so like heartening, disheartening. First of all, there had been years of work from everyone, but like decades of trauma had built to that, you know, from previous generations, from the Magdalene laundries, from all of these Catholic church, post-colonial horror stories in Ireland.
I remember this guy who was the boomer or something just kind of said just so flippantly like because it didn't mean a fucking anything to him. And he was just like, I don't think it's going to go through.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (31:10 - 31:12)
Jesus, not the boomer.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (31:12 - 32:16)
I was like, you're a young guy. He was like in his 30s and I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, I don't think it's going to go through.
Anyway, and I kind of moved along and I was just like, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Anyway, it passed in a landslide, like 67%, which is insane, because I think people understood that even though it was so so full of shame in Ireland from various for various reasons, everyone still gets one. So it's like, do you want someone to get one safely or do you want a person to have to fly to a different country to get one?
Which is what happened. Oh, like it was three women a day from Ireland would have to fly to England to get health care because they couldn't get it here. And as we know, with abortion, it's not just it starts with abortion.
But like if you have a country that has limited abortion or very strict abortion laws, you're not seen as a person. So any other health care from that, forget about it. You're not considered a person.
So you're not really going to be listened to properly. Your maternity care is not going to be as good. It just trickles and trickles down.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (32:17 - 32:22)
That is profound. That is profound. No, it is honestly.
It's like putting it that way.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (32:23 - 32:23)
It's that simple.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (32:24 - 32:43)
Yeah, it's that simple. If you take away that choice. What was the reason that set up that cascade of events that allowed Ireland to be like, what happened to allow for everybody to galvanize, to make this, to vote?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (32:44 - 33:40)
It was a lot of things I think is our generation was just sick, fucking sick of it. And I think the Catholic Church had lost its grip. So we went from kind of, you know, England colonized the Catholic Church.
It just became a I think our generation was sick of it. And yeah, they were just activated at home. And like for the Yes Equality campaign, it was it's people on the streets doing it.
Like the community and the activism in Ireland for everything is incredible. Like our generation, our generations before, sorry, like the whole thing. But Ireland is a very political place.
So I think that the people doing it for Yes Equality did such a fucking amazing job. And that energy was still left over. And there were still shames to be made.
And I kind of just it was a catalyst for it. But I remember when we were going around to doors and talking to people and we were doing this TV thing the same day of the vote. Remember we not like I was doing it around my small, tiny hometown, which is a few thousand people.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (33:40 - 33:41)
And it still haven't been there.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (33:41 - 33:54)
You're never going. And then the cameras were like, you know, they were looking for people who were no voters. It was Samantha Bee show, the full frontal.
So they were looking for people who are not. There are other people. They were looking for people who are no voters to get a bit of a TV thing or whatever.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (33:55 - 33:59)
And like, no, we want abortion to not be allowed.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (33:59 - 35:34)
Yeah, no, no, no. We want abortion. We want the laws to stay as they are.
We are not you know, we are anti-choice, whatever they've got. So they were trying to find that because they were like, you know, trying to make a peace and. Couldn't really find it.
And I was honestly a bit like, oh, God, they're going to come to my small hometown and everyone's going to be like anti-choice, who is so like Catholic church. But honestly, it was like it was actually like really emotional and they couldn't find us. They were like, we can't fucking face to be caught.
It was incredible. People were pulling like the producers and hosts like down an alleyway to talk to them and tell them, tell them their stories. So all they found was people trying to tell them their stories.
And then we knocked on this old man who was about 85. And we knocked on his door and we were trying to use his power for a TV. And he was like, what are you doing?
And I was like, oh, my God, here we go. Here's here's the guy. Now they're looking for Adam Fantam.
Here he is. And then we told him what we were doing. And it was for the vote and like la la la.
And he was so emotional. I remember he was just like, I'm voting. I voted, yes.
You know, I'm going to vote. And we were just like, oh, my God, like it had just been people that heard stories for generations. People's mothers have been in Magdalene laundries and there's essentially a prison for, you know, unwedded pregnant women.
So there was just a lot of trauma, I think, that had led to it. And a lot of. Yeah, it was just really surprising.
And the fact that abortion rights got more votes than yes, than gay marriage in our country. It got like three percent more, 10 percent. But it's still huge.
That's huge. It's huge. So that's how much people want to change.
You know, it's like if it can happen in Ireland, it can happen anywhere.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (35:35 - 35:44)
The thing that though, that's so amazing. I'm proud of you for having been a part of all of that. What a momentous thing for people.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (35:44 - 35:49)
It was an honestly an incredible day for everyone, like and except for, you know, the couple of times and anti-choicers.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (35:49 - 36:03)
No, it's a wonderful day for them, too, because like they still can get health care. And I also because they're also the ones who need access to this kind of stuff. They just at the time don't realize that that's going to be something they might need or had needed.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (36:03 - 36:10)
Also, to think of all these American male politicians, the conservatives. Like like Mr. Mr. They haven't been paying for abortions for.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (36:11 - 36:11)
Oh, honey.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (36:11 - 36:12)
Everything is bullshit.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (36:12 - 37:35)
Oh, honey. The number of times, which is just, again, blows this brain that the conservative people, these the people you're talking about are way more likely to basically crash grinder when they come to tower. Our grinder ups just completely go back when a conservative convention comes to town.
What is that about? The number of hits of trans porn on Pornhub go through the roof to the point that Google can't even kind of count those clicks anymore to even pay the the talent when a conservative conference comes to town. These are the people who use and abuse the things that they are voting against every single time.
They have demons. And so they become demonic in their control of other people because they wish that it wasn't part of them. They wish this wasn't something that they had to deal with.
But they do. And the way they deal with it is by hurting other people because it's the only way to pick themselves up. Big, you said, hurt people, hurt people, hurt people, hurt people.
So like the same thing. That example of abortion, I just I'm not going to get that in my head now that you said that little simple. Yeah, it's so simple.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (37:35 - 37:59)
It is when people are always like, I think I learned a lot doing activism for that or whatever, or just talking to every single person about it, because it's like I'm not normally talking to like all of these random people about this subject. But yet some people were just kind of like, why is this such a big deal? Or like why?
And it was just like, it's it's everything. It is literally everything. It starts with that.
And if you don't have that, you can't get anything else.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (38:00 - 38:48)
And we talk about privilege, right? Like a lot of people have the privilege of not having to think about this. A lot of people have the privilege of not having to like.
They don't have to spend a second even contemplating these kinds of things because they're sitting on thrones of places where they're never going to be touched by questions like this. They're never going to be touched by inequality at the workplace. They're never going to be touched by maternity leave lengths.
They're never going to be touched by whether or not a person gets access to medication that makes them not feel terrible when they have a painful period or that somebody even cares about having a painful period. They don't ever have to think about it because they're sitting on velvet thrones all the time and their privilege basically disables them from having to even think of the question, why would they? How could they?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (38:49 - 38:50)
Well, they don't have to.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (38:50 - 39:04)
They don't have to. Like it's Lady Gaga's song. If it happens to you, it's when it happens to you that you then get to see and then change your perspective on something.
But until it does, it won't matter. Yeah. Ever.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (39:05 - 39:05)
I know.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (39:05 - 39:32)
And it's those throny people who are making decisions for everybody else. And that's why it's so important to have this kind of conversations, because who knows who gets to listen to somebody who's never heard this? And maybe it'll be really enraging for a lot of people.
Maybe a lot of people are going to be like, oh, these two are these two with their queer feminist bullshit soapbox. These dumb bitches. Not not everything's about race.
Not everything's about sexism.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (39:32 - 39:33)
Literally everything is.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (39:33 - 39:36)
Why is why you have to make everything about misogyny?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (39:37 - 40:08)
Because because it is. And also, I honestly think this book that I'm like listening to at the moment, but it's factual. It is literally data about the world.
I'm not even finished the book now, so I can't talk at all. But like it's stuff so simple about like how snow clearing is sexist, like clearing of snow. That's just a teaser you have to read.
That's a teaser you have to read. But it's literally like a bit of a shovel. And it's just it's just factual.
It's just the way it is. It's not even like blue. It's just like it's literary fact.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (40:09 - 40:15)
What do you as a woman think? Should, could, would happen next?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (40:16 - 41:05)
I think that people in a position of power whose job it is to look after women, vulnerable people, trans people, queer people, anyone and specifically doctors and people in health care professions, because they're so stretched as well, like doctors are so fucking stretched. It's like it's a hard, incredibly hard profession to work in. The thing you said there about people not having to think about things.
So like, you know, if it's a straight male doctor and they don't really have to, everyone walks through the world in a different way. But if you are in a position of power where your job is to literally look after people, you have to see the world from every way. So read fucking books.
You don't know about menopause, bitch? Read about it. No.
Go to courses about it. Endometriosis, PCOS, iron. Because it's like, is it not fascinating for you?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (41:05 - 41:05)
No.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (41:05 - 41:08)
As a doctor, are you not for that? Are you not curious?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (41:08 - 41:09)
I am.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (41:09 - 41:17)
Like the way men as well are not curious about periods. I'm like, if I didn't know about it, would you be able to tell me everything about it? Because it's it's a wild thing.
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (41:17 - 41:18)
Oh, it's.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (41:18 - 41:18)
So where's the curiosity?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (41:20 - 41:29)
The the beautiful jungle that is the Amazon of what happens to a woman during her metrocycle is PCOS.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (41:29 - 41:34)
No, it's insane. That's why I'm like, learn about it. Every man should know everything about periods.
It will make your life easier.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (41:35 - 44:52)
I remember. It was a it was a couple of women at a party that I was at, and they were like talking to some guys and the guys. There was some cackling happening and then lots of like gay gasping and clutching of pearls.
And then I was like, oh, it's going on. And there's like, OK, Bobby, come here. And they said, Bobby, where is the pee hole on a woman relative to her vagina?
I was like, sorry, white people ask me that question. And they're like, because we asked the guys. And I remember we're just like, they have no idea.
It's like, hang on. I was like, how you're like you're there. You're like straight, man.
You're there. How do you not know? And then they were confused as to how many openings.
Like I was just like, I know where the views. How do you not know that curiosity? This is why there's no period.
There is none. There's none. And the thing that I wish happens at the very beginning of any of my classes in school, I wished this is what happened.
So if we're having a conversation about class one, day one of gynecology, what I would love is for us to have the first 10 to 20 minutes discussing the history of gynecology, not going right into anatomy and your bendings and blah, blah, blah. The history of gynecology so that we get an understanding of just like it's like like this. So they're the forbearers.
Strange way of putting it, but the forbearers of gynecology of understanding were black women. Slaves who were completely mutilated and abused and tortured without pain medication, surgically. Cut into to understand what the vagina looks like, what the uterus looks like, what the bladder looks like, and then sewed back up again and repeated over and over and over again by the same surgeon who is curious, but had to use somebody.
So he used black slaves. And just the it's so horrendous. If we learned at the beginning of gynecology class, that story named those women like it's literally started with torture.
Yeah. Name those women. Speak to their story.
And could anybody in that class ever look at that subject ever the same again? No. They couldn't.
They wouldn't be able to. You'd be like first day was so important to talk about the origins of our understanding of gynecology came from enslaved women who had no choice, who were tortured. And that that's how we learned how to do fistulotomies.
That's how we learned how to do surgeries on women, because it was understood through these. They're not even brave. They shouldn't have had to have been brave.
They were they were tortured, tortured of no choice at all. They didn't volunteer for shit. If we learned in the first 20 minutes of every class, the origins of anything, where did we learn this from?
I don't think our brains would go on to day two, day three, day four. The same.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (44:52 - 44:53)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (44:53 - 44:58)
I think we'd be like, I have a different colored glass that I'm looking at things with.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (44:58 - 44:58)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (44:58 - 44:59)
How could I not?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (45:00 - 45:00)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (45:00 - 45:19)
That's what I think would be so beneficial, because if you don't live the experience, like if you don't live the experience of like a queer brown person or of a woman, if you don't live the experience, how are you expected to know anything unless you're told day one that this is where it came from?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (45:19 - 45:19)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (45:19 - 45:44)
Maybe that'll liberate you a little bit in terms of maybe when a woman comes in to see you. Ten years later, you have it so emblazoned in your brain, that story that you're like, I'll never do that to a person again. And so I'm going to make a decision to actively be anti-misogynistic, anti-racist, anti-sexist with every move I make or at least possible to also become better at my job.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (45:44 - 45:55)
Exactly. Like, it's just it's so simple. It's like not it's not as like difficult to think about.
I've always just thought, like, as a doctor, like a woman must be such an interesting puzzle.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (45:56 - 46:07)
In women, it's findable if you try, that if you don't try, you're not going to be able to find it. It might take a woman seven to 11 years to be diagnosed with endometriosis.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (46:08 - 46:08)
Mm hmm.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (46:09 - 47:23)
It might take a woman that long to be diagnosed. But why is that? Because one, we haven't trained enough ultrasound technicians to be able to identify endometriosis looking lesions.
We overemphasize covering up the problem, like giving them oral birth control right away as soon as they have pain that is unbearable for them, that they miss school or miss work, that they end up just having the it's a solution. Anyway, do you want to have a baby? You're not going to have a baby.
Go and tell it's going to cover up your pain is going to cover up the symptoms that you experience from this condition. And then when you're ready to have a baby, let's talk. Did you just like how you don't hear what you just said?
Did you just minimize this person and their entire experience for the next maybe 15 years from the ages of 16 until they're ready to have a baby at 33, which is now the average year? Did you just minimize them and that entire time that they would just need to be on birth control? Meanwhile, there's a disease process that's brewing and potentially ravaging other parts of their body that when you actually get them off of oral birth control, it then reveals itself to be the thing that's going to prevent them from having a baby.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (47:24 - 47:37)
I feel like you literally are talking about a few different people that I know because it's like endometriosis is awful. Like the more I read about and learn about it, I'm like, it's so debilitating for women to deal with. I just feel...
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (47:37 - 47:39)
Guess what percentage of women have endometriosis?
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (47:39 - 47:43)
I would say 110%. 110%. Hey, if you don't know about it, you're about to.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (47:43 - 47:50)
Yeah. We should treat it like that, though. We should treat it like 110% of women have it because then we take their pain more seriously.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (47:50 - 47:51)
Yeah.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (47:51 - 47:52)
It's about 20%.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (47:53 - 47:56)
Do more women have PCOS or endometriosis?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (47:56 - 49:51)
Well, we don't know the true numbers because PCOS, this is a very interesting question. PCOS has changed its criteria over the years. So endometriosis is like you literally have to go in surgically to see, to like open up parts of the body to then see, oh, there it is, and then kind of like get rid of it.
Or if there's too much, you then suppress it. There's very few technicians that do sonography like ultrasound that can actually identify it just through imaging alone. MRIs don't do it.
CT scans don't do it. X-rays don't do it. You kind of have to see if it visualizes the ring.
PCOS is different. PCOS used to be you need to have these very strict criteria. And if you didn't have these very strict criteria, you don't get to get the label of PCOS.
I don't care how much of a beard you grow. If you grow a beard as a woman, but you did not have high testosterone levels in your blood or cysts on your ovaries that look like there were many to be consistent with PCOS or irregular periods, like, listen, bearded lady, we'll see you next time you have another problem. Enjoy the greatest showman, because that's really how we got it done.
That's how it was. So then they change the criteria to be like, we're being a little unfair. That's very strict.
Why don't we let them have two out of three? So instead of exactly two, they're like, let them have the beard. Let them have cysts on their ovaries.
And OK, that's enough. We don't have to do more than that. And then very recently it changed again to be a more.
Expansive and inclusive. That now means that a huge, much greater number of women actually are being diagnosed to PCOS. We don't know the true numbers, but it's probably less than endometriosis.
OK, because PCOS is not as prevalent as we understand endometriosis to be.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (49:51 - 49:55)
OK, so why the two main? Like endometriosis and PCOS?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (49:55 - 50:15)
Probably. I mean, there's all kinds of other diseases that women suffer from that are very prevalent. Chronic UTIs is a problem.
Like vaginal pain is a problem. Fibroids is enormous. There are upwards to the 40s and 50% of women in perimenopause.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (50:16 - 50:19)
That would be a gag at that. Does she? Fibroids, fibroids, fibroids?
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (50:19 - 50:39)
So there's all kinds of other things. It's just that PCOS and endometriosis are these like kind of unique ones where they're kind of both told, cover them up.
Just bury them. Get the biggest shovel you fucking have and bury it until she's ready to have a baby.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (50:40 - 50:41)
It's everything goes back to the baby.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (50:41 - 50:42)
Everything goes back to the baby.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (50:42 - 50:44)
Everything goes back to the body. Everything goes back to the baby.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (50:45 - 50:55)
Goes back to having the baby or. No, you're right. Yeah, I was going to say or something and then I was like, wait, no, there's misogyny.
It's just it's just that.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (50:56 - 50:57)
Yeah, that's it.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (50:57 - 50:58)
And that's it.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (50:58 - 51:03)
And that's it. And that's the tea. That's and that's the tea.
Thanks for Kiki with us, Kaz.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (51:03 - 51:15)
I'm so happy to have these kinds of conversations with people because it's so important that we do have them. We could go on for hours. I already know that I want to talk so much more about other things with you.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (51:16 - 51:23)
So when you were saying about what can people do and all this, like what you're doing is this podcast is like, I already know all the girls are going to eat it up.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (51:23 - 51:23)
Girl, we cry.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (51:24 - 51:47)
Everyone's going to be like a hunting fizz. And to put like pot across like this, people need to inform people like you need to lead the conversations as well and allow space for the conversations and teach people. You have taught me more.
I hate to say this. You have taught me more about being not me, but like being a woman with periods about my body as the last night thing I ever say to you. This conversation is over.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (51:47 - 51:49)
You remember that? Because that was a gift.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (51:50 - 51:50)
Page cut device.
[Dr. Bobby Parmar, ND] (51:50 - 51:53)
So thank you, everybody, for watching. See you next episode.
[Karen "Kaz" Twomey] (51:54 - 51:54)
Bye.
